Covid and Community: A Conversation with Dave Duley | Salty Talk 009 | THRR

Welcome to Salty Talk. This is a special edition of Healthy Rebellion Radio. Each week on Salty Talk Robb will do a deep dive into current health and performance news, mixed with an occasional Salty conversation with movers and shakers in the world of research, performance, health, and longevity.
For the full the video presentation of this episode and to be a part of the conversation, join us in The Healthy Rebellion online community.

WARNING: These episodes may get “salty” with the occasional expletive.

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In this episode I talk to my friend Dave Duley about COVID, community, disaster preparation, resilience, business, economy, and more.


The video we mention in the intro:

Dave’s book: I Can Fix America


Download a copy of the transcript here (PDF)

Nicki: Welcome to The Healthy Rebellion Radio. This is an episode of Salty Talk, a deep dive into popular and relevant health and performance news pieces mixed with the occasional salty conversation with movers and shakers in the world of research, performance, health and longevity. Healthy Rebellion Radio’s Salty Talk episodes are brought to you by Drink LMNT, the only electrolyte drink mix that’s salty enough to make a difference in how you look, feel and perform. We co-founded this company to fill a void in the hydration space. We needed an electrolyte drink that actually met the sodium needs of active people, low-carb, keto and carnivore adherence without any of the sugar, colors and fillers found in popular commercial products. Health rebels, this is Salty Talk.

Nicki: And now the thing our attorney advises. The contents of this show are for entertainment and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast should be considered medical advice. Please consult your licensed and credentialed functional medicine practitioner before embarking on any health, dietary or fitness change. And given that this is Salty Talk, you should expect the occasional expletive.

Nicki: We’re recording.

Robb: Awesome.

Nicki: Hello hubs.

Robb: What’s happening wife?

Nicki: Oh gosh, we got some good to do’s accomplished this morning.

Robb: We did get some good to do’s accomplished today.

Nicki: We did. We did.

Robb: Yeah.

Nicki: We got a few things done. Got a little gutted by a video that was shared.

Robb: Do you want to talk about that or?

Nicki: I think it’s worth talking about a little bit.

Robb: I guess we could put that in the show notes too. It’s pretty powerful.

Nicki: We could, we could. One of Robb’s friends shared a video of a father talking about how he lost his son recently. And-

Robb: The whole thing starts with my son died due to COVID, but not the way you think.

Nicki: Right. And just talks about the amount of, kind of emotional and psychological stress that so many people are feeling at this time and how… I don’t know, we can’t do the story justice, it’s super powerful to watch this man share what happened. But we were in tears, I was balling. And it’s a heavy time.

Robb: Well and it’s really unfortunate because… And I don’t know if this is more and more, I want to lay all the blame on “the media” and it’s like we should storm every TV station, newspaper and string up half the people in these things because we’ve created a situation in which only controversy, only drama is what’s reported. But then also they’re simply catering to what the bulk of us respond to. And the somewhat unfortunate thing is if you just check out and you’re like, “Fuck that stuff, I’m not consuming it,” I guess that’s okay for you. But there’s still a bunch of other people that consume and get spun up.

Robb: But we’re in this situation specifically this COVID deal that, there’s no middle ground. It again has become this thing of, if you have some questions about the knock-on effects of lockdown and effectively house arrest, if you’re concerned about the psychological health and the potential for suicide and all number of other things, businesses closing. We just-

Nicki: One of our favorite restaurants in Reno-

Robb: Folks that we knew really well.

Nicki: … our friends just sent us… Yeah. It was where we would go on our anniversary, is where we would go on date nights with good friends. It was just a great little restaurant with phenomenal food. Always tons of well-prepared… Like took time to like make sure that the gluten free options were truly gluten-free, farm to table, like well-sourced ingredients and they’re closed.

Robb: They’re gone forever.

Nicki: They’re gone. Yep.

Robb: And maybe this is an echo chamber because maybe the folks that have tolerated us this far, they get it. I don’t know, hopefully some folks are kind of on the periphery, but if you’re… All of us are concerned about people getting sick, dying, being affected by COVID. But the thing that is escaping a lot of folks is that every decision has consequences. And there’s too little thought about the consequences of an overly onerous, completely one size fits all approach to this. And we’re beginning to see some of the results of that.

Robb: And it’s terrible if there’s someone in their ’50s, ’60s, ’70s or whatever that dies from COVID. But this is something I think we said in an earlier podcast. I was like, “How are people going to respond when young vibrant people who have their whole life ahead of them, begin killing themselves because of the pressure, or the stress, or financial straits, or difficult home environment or whatever?” And yeah, every life’s important. But I think-

Nicki: Well we’ve gone, and we’ve talked about this a lot within the Healthy Rebellion, but we’ve gone from… Like in the beginning, I remember one of the first podcasts we did talking about COVID, we talked about we need to flatten the curve. Our hospitals are not able to sustain if stuff goes at the trajectory that everything was being predicted, the hospitals will be overwhelmed. And now instead of, you know-

Robb: We appear to have done it.

Nicki: We’ve done a great job at that. The hospitals are not overwhelmed, at least as far as-

Robb: Many hospitals are furloughing people because they have cut all other processes, which now other people are dying because they’re not getting dialysis that they need.

Nicki: They can’t get the surgeries that they need, because those are considered nonessential, I guess for whatever reason. So now instead of trying to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed, it appears that our new goal is nobody gets sick from coronavirus.

Robb: And nobody dies.

Nicki: Nobody gets COVID and nobody dies. And so it’s-

Robb: Which is preposterous. This is where some people… And again, I waffle between trying to create this big tent thing where it’s like, “Hey everybody come in, let’s have a discussion.” And then part of me is just like, “Fuck all those assholes. Let’s find the thousand people who get this and build the revolution with that.” But I was having a discussion with Chris Kresser and there’s a great analogy with this, which is, if we reduced the speed limit to one mile an hour, pretty good chance all motor vehicle related deaths would end, I guess, if like a wife backs over her husband in the backyard or something like that.

Nicki: At one mile an hour?

Robb: Yeah, one mile an hour. That’s the thing. But 60 or 70,000 people a year in the United States die in motor vehicle accidents, and it’s terrible and it’s horrible. And I believe it’s probably affected every single person listening to this.

Nicki: At one time or another yeah.

Robb: And it is the cost benefit story that we have negotiated. If we need to go do something, need to get somewhere, we play with those risks. But also, I will admit that a lot of people undervalue those risks. But-

Nicki: You were sharing after your conversation with Chris that, if that was a one mile… If we had a one-mile-per hour speed limit, people would be starving because there wouldn’t be able to-

Robb: Exactly.

Nicki: … transport food-

Robb: We wouldn’t be able to get food anyone in a timely fashion.

Nicki: … across state lines to feed people.

Robb: So there’s trade-offs. If we’re going to move goods and services in a timely fashion, then there’s an increased risk of danger. And so we do silly things like you can’t drink and drive. You can’t be high and drive, because you will fucking kill people, maybe yourself. But then sometimes a school bus full of kids. And so again, we hopefully talk through this stuff and make some reasoned decisions, and I just don’t get the sense that enough reason decisions are happening and there’s kind of a draconian power grab that’s happening that is going to have absolutely the opposite result, I think of what the desired result is.

Robb: If the desired result is to produce civil unrest so that then these politicians can swoop in and enforce Marshall Lawn and have an even deeper power grab, then maybe it’s a fantastic idea, if they are surprised by the way that some of this stuff is going to play out. Then we really need to be able to have a conversation around this stuff again and play with… Okay, when New Braunfels, Texas, our COVID exposure has been very, very low or hospitals are not overwhelmed. We’re probably good to rather aggressively start opening things up.

Robb: And by all means, we keep an eye on things and anybody that’s immunocompromised, anybody that has preexisting conditions, we do some effort to take care of them. And part of that effort should be that the powers that be, not just me pseudo-science guy saying, “Hey, you should probably take some vitamin D, get out in the sun. And maybe in way that-

Nicki: Eat well, exercise.

Robb: … isn’t fostering metabolic disease.” How about the fucking CDC? How about the World Health Organization saying you have some control over the outcome of this besides hiding in a hole? You can take control of your health and actually have a better outcome. Not one of these fuckers has said anything like that. There is no messaging that you can be in control of the way this thing plays out by improving your health. And that is-

Nicki: Appalling.

Robb: … appalling. So today’s show is an interview… Well, I interview my good friend Dave Duley, who some of you will likely remember.

Nicki: Recognize his name. You guys had a show called the Controversial Truth that you ran for-

Robb: Three years, almost four.

Nicki: … three years. Yep, this was like 2012 to 12, 13, 14, somewhere in there?

Robb: Thereabouts, thereabouts. Yeah, there was a little bit of break here and there. We did the last show a couple of days after Trump’s inauguration and just kind of did, some unpacking, but we did a lot of game playing at that time, around what questions do you need to ask about the financial system, and the food system, and energy and all these things? So that you can be safe for your life. As safe and kind of risk mitigated as you can. And I think early in this COVID experience, I mentioned both here and on the Healthy Rebellion itself that, I would say that I, and we were not nearly as shocked by what played out here.

Robb: It’s frustrating, it’s all get out different elements of it. But I knew that there was a potential around food systems getting fucked up. I knew that there was a potential around the electricity could turn off and it could turn off for extended periods of time. There wasn’t a moment in which I was in panicked shock. And I think that for a lot of people there was some panic and some shock in this. And I talk to Dave about this because we kind of formulated, “Okay, well what are you going to do?” “Well, I’m going to have this tri-fuel generator and I’m going to add some freeze-dried food, and I’m going to do this and I’m going to do that.”

Robb: And so it was interesting talking to Dave about that stuff. And Dave has been very successful in business. One of his accolades is being one of the top 40 under 40 in business in Atlanta, which is a pretty good business hub and some stiff competition. And Dave alluded obliquely to some of the projects he’s been working on more recently. He’s not cleared hot to mention all of that quite yet.

Nicki: Divulge?

Robb: But we had a great conversation and just talked about kind of the state of affairs within, kind of the modern world and our ability to talk about things and ask the questions to better understand what’s going on.

Nicki: It’s going to be a good salty talk.

Robb: It’s a goodie.

Nicki: All right, let’s jump in.

Robb: Welcome to Salty Talk, I am here with my dear friend Dave Duley. Dave, how are you man?

Dave: I’m great brother. It’s good to be here with you.

Robb: I’m glad I’m still here because when Dave and I sat down the other day to do this, we had our tornado warning and then we created an impromptu bomb shelter in our hallway and had to talk the kids off the ledge that we were not going to end up in a funnel cloud like in The Wizard of Oz. That was good times.

Dave: Yeah. 2020 is no chill, as they say.

Robb: It Is. Kick to the Jimmy, absolute, kick to the Jimmy basically.

Dave: Exactly.

Robb: So Dave, how are you navigating COVID? What’s going on?

Dave: Well as you can see, I’m above ground, so things seem to be all right. I apologize for anyone viewing, I just took a shower and my hair is probably going to expand during this episode because I haven’t had a haircut in about three months. But all is well. I think this is going to be one for the ages. We’re going to learn a lot. This is going to be talked about. This is an event not dissimilar to what they talk about, the depression or 9/11 or the financial crisis. Maybe a little bit of both tied together, the later. And it’s been a long journey since you and I have spoken last, at least in these official capacities since our Controversial Truth days. And so it’s a little late.

Robb: We have a ton of folks in the Rebellion that were fans of and listeners to the Controversial Truth. And every once in a while, they will ask one of multiple questions, “What the heck happened to the Controversial Truth? When are you guys going to do another one? What’s Dave Duley up to?” We had a pretty good following with that.

Dave: We did, because of you, you’re famous and handsome. And you do those yearly body shots.

Robb: It was a combination of me and your hair. It’s interesting, early in this COVID situation, I was defaulting back to a lot of what we did in the Controversial Truth, when we had a couple of our, “What would you buy for your doomsday bunker things?” Our holiday gift guides a couple of times and what stuff should you have on hand? And I felt like I was pretty well-prepared for this thing. Like our water situation. We moved houses in the beginning of this, between March and April, we moved houses.

Dave: Which is also a non-stressful event.

Robb: No, no, it’s like death of a spouse, death of a child, moving, and then do it during a pandemic. And so that was exciting but something that I was commenting on and I was trying to do it in a way that wasn’t like, “Hey, look at me. I’m so smart.” But at the same time, there was just this reality that, because we had had this head space, that something like this could happen, that the normal systems, the normal infrastructure that we’re used to, could be gone in a moment, I wouldn’t say that I really had even a moment of panic or shock. There wasn’t really a shock phase for me. I’m like, “Well of course this happened. Shit, like this is going to happen.” Whereas I think there were-

Dave: And we talked about that… You know, what are some of the outliers that could happen, and pandemic was something you mentioned.

Robb: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you feel like the previous preparations… I feel like I was pretty well set up. How do you feel you were set up for this?

Dave: It’s funny. So you and I being long-time friends have obviously communicated various times during the day over the past two or three months as we’ve been into this. And so you know that I left Atlanta to drive to my place in Northern Michigan on March 15th. And me and my girlfriend decided on March 13th that we were going to do that. And so March 14th, I decided to load the truck up, right? Because we’re going to drive and the truck was loaded, like we’re ready for a Mad Max movie a little bit, you know? But I get up to our place in Northern Michigan and my brother’s up there. He’s like, “When did you get all this stuff? Like, you’re ready to be here for months.”

Dave: And I’m like, “Oh, I had it.” He was like, “Did you go to the store? How’d you find this stuff during the pandemic?” Right? I don’t know if that makes me weird, or smart, or lucky or whatever, but literally we were ready. We had a plan and executed the plan with the idea of not really knowing what to believe. I think we can talk about that later on in the show today. But really putting ourselves in a position, not in a metropolitan area, in a rural area of people that I understand and know and have the ability to be self-sufficient if I needed to be. Which is a crazy thought process from normal, modern society to even think that way.

Robb: Right.

Dave: But then I think what you and I take for granted about what we do for a living, is I started my first company when I was 23 and I’m 44 now. And we’ll talk a little bit later about what I’m up to now, but when you’re an entrepreneur a little bit, your life is always a pandemic.

Robb: Right.

Dave: You know? And so this idea of derailed structure, or things coming out of the blue that I’ve had to deal with, is par for the course. A little bit different, a little bit more extreme. But I feel for the people who have lives of more structure, more consistency, that this could really throw people for a loop. Because it still throws me for a loop-

Robb: Right.

Dave: … and I’m used to chaos.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And so I feel for the people who this really brings about a true disruption in normal living.

Robb: Right. You know, it’s interesting the commentary within the Rebellion, lots of interesting things and really affirming, that we’re doing good work, that this place actually provides value. But for a ton of people, they commented that if they were left with the mainstream media or social media to try to sort through this stuff, they’d be going crazy. Just going crazy. And very early on, I ended up limiting what I looked at… Like I would sniff stuff, but if it wasn’t going to really improve my understanding of the situation, or provide something concrete, actionable, it doesn’t exist, it’s doesn’t matter. It doesn’t exist. It’s speculation.

Robb: And for me, just that the physical preparation really led to a psychological preparation again, such that did I want the power to go out? Did I want food shortages? No, none of that stuff. But at the same time, none of that would have surprised me. None of that would have been nearly as psychologically damaging as just being completely flatfooted. And I think that that was so much of what we were trying to do with the Controversial Truth, was to just get people aware that like, “Hey, the day to day doesn’t always exist.”

Robb: Like in the stroke of a moment, everything could change. And sometimes for the better, but oftentimes for the worse. And just that psychological preparation of knowing it could occur, I think is an incredible advantage. Yeah.

Dave: Look, I think if anything, what we’ve learned is maybe there aren’t as many rules as we believe there were on how the world really works or needs to work. And then the challenge is the reality of, “Okay, this is the way it is.” Well, look, here’s the invisible enemy shows up and changes things. Right?

Robb: Right.

Dave: And kind of back to our old school theme of being controversial on the Controversial Truth, I think we’ll be able to dive into your point on what is true, where do you get those news sources from? And in today’s hyper, I don’t know… Not offended, but everyone’s hypersensitive, right? And in any sort of bad situation there’s a lot of emotions, and I want to honor that and talk about that. But I also want to have honest conversations about data and lives and decisions.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And so I was thinking before I came on like, what are the ground rules… Normally I would never give sort of like, “These are the disclosures,” before we have a conversation. But I think to have an honest conversation, you need to say things like, “All life is important.” Right? “And we don’t want anyone to die.” It’s unfortunate, but also, no one’s getting out of here alive.

Robb: Right. Right.

Dave: So let’s understand the broad spectrum of that. And what I think we can also say with some confidence is any model you see or meet in a bar, they’re almost always wrong. So you might like looking at them, but things are moving so fast and furious. There’s a need for narrative on multiple sides of the aisle. And I’m not even talking about politically, I’m talking about media wise to get eyeballs and clicks, et cetera. It’s hard to find what’s true.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And so you have to sit back objectively and say, “Okay, here are the decisions made.” It’s always easy to be… You know, Sunday morning quarterback or backseat driver and say, “Oh, I would have done this, that.” And I think generally no one knew the data. Right? And so we live in a world, society wise that I liken it very much to what happened in Atlanta during snowpocalypse. Do you remember snowpocalypse? Like, “Oh, snowstorm’s going to come through. We should let the schools and the businesses out all at the same time.”

Dave: Maybe they waited too long and like we were on national news forever, Saturday Night Live skits, cars on the highway, abandoned people trapped in cars for 12 hours. So now in Atlanta, the minute a flurry happens, we way overreact, everything gets shut down. Schools are closed forever, it’s the spectrum of it. And so I think we have a very societal reaction to maybe overreact, because we don’t want to upset or endanger any class or any type of person. So everyone has to act the same. And I’m not sure that works.

Robb: Yeah, the ham-handed approach seems tough and I think we’re really seeing some of that emerge. An analogy that I’ve used several times is we definitely needed to pump the brakes, but I feel like what’s happened is we pulled the engine and the transmission out of the car and left it up on blocks, and goalposts have been moved and whatnot. And what we’re discovering I think, it’s up for debate, but I think we’re discovering that this ham-handed approach, this mitigates death at all costs, may actually end up having more unintended consequences and knock-on effects that are worse than the core problem that we were trying to address.

Robb: And it is interesting. And the helicopter parent, zero tolerance for risk world, you actually create a system that is so brittle that we end up being exposed to greater risks. The potential for more problems like these food shortage potentiality and whatnot.

Dave: Yeah, negative feedback loops.

Robb: Yeah.

Dave: Yeah. It just spiral the wrong way. I think you’re right. When I was younger, everything was very black and white. As I’m getting older, I’m seeing the grays and things, right? Including my hair.

Robb: And not just on my head.

Dave: Right, exactly. And what we’re seeing is that there are a distinct differences of Americans on, do our problem solve through self-reliance. And you know what? I’m going to take ownership to solve and prepare, or are problems solved by big government? And by big government, I even mean local government, even like your local… Whoever shows up at your door to help solve a problem if it’s not you or your community or family, if it’s a government agency, that’s a very helpless feeling. And I think that can psychologically hurt.

Dave: And I get it, not everyone’s in the position to prep on the fly. Most, everyone’s in the position to do little things along the way. You know, we started the Controversial Truth, I think mid-2012. The only reason I know that is cause we make fun of ourselves for not buying Bitcoin at ten dollars. And we talked about it because we’re idiots. And so that’s nine years ago or eight years ago. See, I can do math. And we didn’t know, we had a suspicion something would happen, and to your point earlier, I was prepared. I can say I was prepared.

Robb: Right, right, yeah.

Dave: And I had peace and I felt at peace with that preparation. If I wasn’t prepared, and I had to rely on the government or a broken-down distribution or supply system, you get desperate. I could see how people are desperate.

Robb: Right.

Dave: It’s not a good feeling.

Robb: Well, and it’s interesting because we covered a lot of different topics of resilience, like personal resilience being a lot of different things, possibly foremost your health, being healthy. And if we’ve seen anything out of this pandemic, the folks that are not healthy, they’re far more poorly, and some people it is legitimately out of their hands. They have autoimmune conditions, are battling cancer, but we also have a massive slice of the population that knows that they’re not doing well and they’re able to kind of kick the can on things like cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes.

Robb: But this COVID thing took what was going to happen over years or decades and compressed it down to days and weeks, as far as exposing the liability of that kind of metabolic health. And then we talked a lot about… And it’s not always to do you have… It’s not always easy to do. You have single parents, you have folks living on the margins. But to the degree possible, if folks could be out of debt, if they could live within their means, then this situation could end up being a challenge versus a catastrophe.

Dave: Yes.

Robb: And then it kind of went on from there. Unfortunately, food systems weren’t massively disrupted, at least not for extended periods of time. But I would say the health and the finance kind of pieces really expose some gaps with the way that… Where folks are and what they’re experiencing things. And we talked a lot about this too, just that the nature of the system, the way that the system is operating, it makes it difficult for people to save money. You’re kind of a dummy to save money in this day and age. What interests are you making on it? You’re supposed to get in and do the casino of the-

Dave: Stock markets.

Robb: … markets. Yeah, yeah.

Dave: Look, as you know personally, probably the weakest area in my preparation, because I have started a new company and I’ve been running hard was my health. I feel like I’m healthy. I don’t have any issues, but I didn’t feel like I was taking it seriously. It was a weak link in my plan. And I thought, I’ve got everything sort of else buttoned up, why am I not taking this seriously? Right? Why am I not doing the work that I do everywhere else in my life? And here’s a specter, here’s some sort of potential threat to everything else happening in my life that I’m working for. Why don’t I just do the work?

Robb: Right.

Dave: And so for me, it’s been a motivating factor to get my health right. Eat right. Like I said, I’ve never really been too far off the reservation. Well, I haven’t been near your reservation, so I’m trying to focus on that.

Robb: With this situation, we don’t really know where the safe boundary is in this scenario. It’s age kind of looks like a factor until you start overlaying oh, a little bit of hypertension, a little bit of cardiovascular disease. And then that starts weighing more heavily. And there was a study not that long ago that suggested that fewer than 12% of Americans are metabolically healthy.

Robb: And so then it’s kind of like, “Man, we’re getting into a very small bullseye of where you can feel like, “Okay, I’m safe. This is home base. This thing will probably be more like a bag cold versus a potentially life ending situation.” But that’s a fascinating piece to it too, that you just don’t really know how far to safety do you need to run on that health front. Yeah.

Dave: But to that point of mitigating risk, if I know that that’s a weak link and based on the data you’ve just shared it, if only 12% of the population is metabolically healthy, and I know I haven’t been doing probably as disciplined approach as I should have, then I probably fall outside of that 12%. So then I have a risk now that’s identified that I can control.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And that makes me feel good. Right? One of the revelations in my life that has given me, I think a lot of power and peace is that everything is my fault. And when everything is your fault, you then realize you have the power to change it.

Robb: You actually have a massive amount of agency.

Dave: Yeah, exactly.

Robb: Yeah.

Dave: And so I have no one to blame. The situation is the situation, it’s the cards dealt. And so we got to play the hand, right? And you play the hand with personal responsibility, with discipline and you try to create structure to an otherwise event that is very chaotic.

Robb: Right, right. And now a quick word from today’s sponsor.

Nicki: Today’s Salty Talk episode is sponsored by Kettle & Fire. Kettle & Fire Bone Broth is made with grass-fed and finished beef bones and organic pasture raised chicken bones. Kettle & Fire Bone Broth is packed with collagen to promote healthy skin and it’s full of amino acids like glycine to promote a healthy gut. Now bone broth, Robb has been a feature of traditional cultures for thousands of years now?

Robb: Well, as long as people have been able to keep hot liquid in a container, I think that bone broth has been a feature of our dietary experience yes.

Nicki: And it’s one of the top nourishing foods for healing all sorts of things, digestive issues-

Robb: When you poke around there’s a lot of different takes, like a specific carbohydrate diet, various elimination diets. Bone broth is kind of one of these things that is universal across all the different approaches.

Nicki: Awesome. And Kettle & Fire Bone Broth is shelf stable so you can grab some, keep it on hand for drinking daily or making quick soups, which is one of the things we love to do.

Robb: We do all the time.

Nicki: Go to and use code Salty Talk for 15% off your order. And now we’ll get back to Robb and Dave.

Robb: Dave, I don’t want to drag this too far out in the weeds, but it’s interesting. Some folks have been talking about different approaches to this situation. Say like South Korea, they had a very different approach to this, and some of this was just that they were Johnny on the spot, with testing and tracking and stuff like that. A lot of these places that have navigated this pretty well, they’re comparatively small populations. They are really homogenous compared to the United States.

Robb: And so when people are… And I’m getting a Berry like finger waggy type sense, and I will completely agree that the testing situation in the U.S. is so appalling that it goes beyond incompetence. Like there’s something else going on there. You can’t fuck this up again and again and again the way that folks have.

Dave: Right.

Robb: And it being competent, it’s like incompetence can’t stretch that long. At some point people get that right. There was just a piece release today that the COVID test from Abbott has a 50% error rate. It’s a goddamn coin toss literally. Flipping a quarter is as good as taking this thing, and it doesn’t cost you to the 150 bucks and having this thing jammed up your nose.

Dave: I must start a new business when we’re done with this outside. I got quarters.

Robb: The COVID predictive coin, it is as good as the testing.

Dave: Right. To commemorate it, we can have a bet on it. I’m sorry.

Robb: So how do we unpack this reality that the United States is huge and it’s culturally complex and it is… How do we make some headway in addressing problems like this? Because this thing really shines a light on some of the structural issues within the United States, because we have some places that feel very confident that everybody should be locked in, it should be totally buttoned up and maybe that’s appropriate for that location, but that is being forced on folks that feel differently, and I think that they’re actually seeing a different reality too.

Robb: And that those two cultures being jammed together is taking what is already kind of a tinder box with a magnifying glass held towards the sun. And then bringing some gasoline towards it. What are your thoughts on that whole situation?

Dave: Wow, that’s a good question. I’ve been thinking about it a lot, because I think about what is the brand of America, or the dream of America? And this is this melting pot of all races, creeds, people coming together to build this thing called America. And South Korea, like you said, has a very homogenous demographic. And in America we want to celebrate diversity and differences. Yet, we also somehow don’t want to ever deliver bad news to anyone.

Robb: Right. Right.

Dave: Okay? And if we deliver bad news, and let’s just pick on me for example. Let’s say the data came out, we were seeing a trend analysis that everyone with blue eyes had a 90% higher chance of this taking them down. If you have blue eyes, you’re going to stay inside.

Robb: Right.

Dave: Just fricking sorry. Right? You need to stay inside, it’s unfair. Everyone else can work, you can’t work, your summer’s canceled out. You can’t do it, you’re inside. Now it’s easy to say that’s a reasonable characteristic to let’s say discriminate against. And point you out and you have blue eyes. “Okay you have blue eyes, blah blah.” But you can’t say it seems… It’s been talked about a little bit. But you can’t say things like, “If you’re very overweight and you have type 2 diabetes, you shouldn’t do these things.”

Dave: You hear things like, “Well it affects those people more.” And then so instead of saying, “Here are the risk factors that we’re seeing the disease affect, and here are who are having very high mortality rates when they come in contact with COVID, and this is what they look like. Here are the elements that they have. Here’s where they live, here’s what they do. And if you match that, you have to operate under these rules. If you don’t match that, here’s the commonsense things that you do to live on your life.”

Robb: To protect you, and to protect the at risk.

Dave: Exactly.

Robb: Yeah, yeah.

Dave: But because I think as a country, we’re so scared of offending anyone, that it’s everyone has to be treated the same, even though everyone’s situations is unique. So it’s this contradictory of policy and philosophy. Everyone’s the same political, yet we have to celebrate diversity. So you can’t have those… At least in my small brain, co-exist-

Robb: Those don’t exist in the same world.

Dave: Right. They just don’t exist in the same world. So you have to say, “Okay, if people are different, that’s fine. They might be susceptible to different things.” And if that group is susceptible to different things and they’re higher susceptible, let’s call it out and say those people are higher risk and maybe these rules need to apply. For those people that we know that have whatever circumstances that are, then here’s the things you need to do. And so it’s a very real realization for me. As you know, I just spent the last two months in Michigan, right?

Dave: Where Michigan has a tremendous high COVID rate, from the media and those of you that are living in Michigan. But what most people don’t understand about Michigan, is that outside of Southeast Michigan, and I’m from Flint. I grew up there and the Detroit Area, sort of that corner, that is where the majority of the cases are. The rest of Michigan is rural except maybe Grand Rapids, Trevor City for a little bit where my place is near. And so what you’ve seen on the news is a general approach to handle the issues in basically the Detroit Southeast Michigan, being applied throughout the entire state, where the County that I have a place, has 17 cases.

Dave: I think it’s been 17 cases stagnant for the last four weeks, and still businesses are shut down. Right? And so you see the revolution sort of happening on TV, or people going and protesting the governor. People have a lot of opinions of her. I haven’t heard a lot of good ones. I think that probably her heart maybe is in the right place with wanting to protect, but the reality is a one size fits all just does not work in a diverse world.

Robb: Right, right. It’s counterintuitive on the one hand and seems mean spirited and terrible. Pre-COVID there were a lot of different trends that were going on. One of them being that it was becoming ever more difficult within medical research to point out comparative differences within different groups. Like African Americans were at a higher risk for type 2 diabetes, et cetera, et cetera. And the real narrative that had shifted there, and I’m not saying there’s not pieces to this, but it was being wholesale blamed on socioeconomic deltas, differences.

Robb: Which was undoubtedly a factor to that, but there’s also a basic reality of some genetic differences, and people get really weirded out because it starts sounding like eugenics and all this type of stuff. But then COVID happened and all of a sudden it became a real legit public health concern that African Americans as an example, are at exceptionally higher risk for a variety of reasons within this COVID situation. And there are undoubtedly social economic factors in that, but there are also inalienable genetic factors. And if we can’t have a discussion around that, we don’t get to help these people.

Robb: And this is one of the things that I hope that we’re able to drag it out of this disaster, is that we really do need to be able to… Like you said, like there’s just some… I really wished that I was six feet tall. I’m not going to be, unless I get like that Russian shin extending deal, they break it.

Dave: There’s some shoes. I think you could get some platform routes, but those days were in college and you’re young and experimenting.

Robb: That’s going to be a lot of platform on me. But there’s just kind of some realities. Like, I don’t do well with wheat. I’ve known that for 20 years, and it sucks, like pizza’s amazing.

Dave: You’re a wheatist.

Robb: Yeah, e-wheatist. Yeah.

Dave: E-wheatist.

Robb: So I’m not sure what my point is here, other than I’m hopeful that we’re able to drag some of this perspective out, but it’s going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

Dave: It is. And one of our… In my prep notes, which you know, I’m-

Robb: I’m looking at those right now.

Dave: Yeah, yeah. I said one of our most popular episodes in the Controversial Truth years ago, was when you and I put on our tenfold hats and said, “what would we have to know to make the decisions that we thought were ridiculous coming from the leaders in government?” Right?

Robb: Right.

Dave: And I’ve been thinking a lot about that, and I actually think that this is… Because we live in an upside-down world these days, that I actually think that the more likely scenario of this current point in time is the inverse. That there is actually so little known by the leaders that they’re trying to create the reality, of what we think it’s going to take to get the economy started, to get people out of fear and into optimism. I think you posted something from Bill Maher, right? I saw it before it went on.

Dave: I mean life is risky, right? And life, there are elements to it, microbes have existed for millions of years, I’m not trying to downplay this pandemic. I get it. But we are going to have to find a way to be brave again. And it’s been a long time since we have been brave as Americans. The last time I can think of it, is what was known as the what? The 9/12 Movement, and maybe that’s not the right word, because I think there was some controversy with who was affiliated with that. But the day after September 11th, we were all unified around a terrible tragedy.

Dave: And we wanted to come together as Americans, political differences aside, we sort of decided, you know what? We have to do what we have to do to get through this. And maybe we went overboard, and we won’t get into political decisions on that. But as a country, emotionally reunited. This seems very different.

Robb: Yeah.

Dave: And if anything has led to more division and now the division isn’t, “I think you’re an idiot because you believe and support this politician.” The division is, “You’re an idiot and your actions are killing people.” Right?

Robb: And it’s spoken with certitude.

Dave: Yeah. Right. Like they’re certain that this is happening. Like if you go out this door, you’re killing your grandmother. And I’m like, “Okay, I don’t know if she’d agree with that, but, okay.” And so we have to find a way through this. We have to find a way to get the economy started. And I hate bringing up health and economy, but they are also correlated as we know. Stress kills unemployment statistically kills.

Dave: Look at what happened after the 2008 and 09 financial crisis. I will quote something here that I’m not a 100% sure of, so I’m going to give a disclaimer. But I believe that the stat was every 1% uptick in unemployment numbers created an effect that resulted in 40,000 additional deaths.

Robb: Yep. Yep.

Dave: And so we’re going to be at 25, 23% from three. So what’s 20 times 40,000. And we all feel it. Your listeners feel it. Part owner restaurants amongst everything else. I have tenants, I own a lot of real estate, that are paying rent. We are feeling things economically and it doesn’t feel good, and it has enough of an effect on me. I can feel it from, this is a stressor. And so that doesn’t help my health.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And so we have to acknowledge that the economy does affect health. And I don’t know if that’s controversial, it seems to almost be controversial or cold-hearted, but I’m okay, drawing a line in the sand and saying that.

Robb: Yeah. Yeah. There’s a one of these memes kind of going around, kind of a Venn diagram concerned about the COVID, concerned about the economy, and there definitely has been this narrative that, seemingly, if you were the least bit concerned about economic knock on consequences, then the riposte was, “Well you just favor capitalism more than human life.” I wish it was that simple, because then we would have a really clear, easy way out of this, but it’s not that simple.

Robb: So it creates a complex set of things that we really need to have a discussion around to figure out, “Okay, how do we want to tackle this and how do we want to tackle this in rural Texas versus urban Los Angeles?” And we’re okay doing it because we’ve kind of got our situation and our understanding of what’s going on. And those folks have their understanding of the situation and what the tolerances are there and the risk exposure. But we really seem at odds to be able to do that. I don’t know, I deleted the link to Fred’s book.

Dave: Ah, that’s great.

Robb: Do you want to talk about that at all or do we punt that for another day or?

Dave: Let’s do it another day. But it’s very interesting, just because I haven’t read it all yet. But the theory is, back to I think one of your initial points today, which is there is so much diversity and so much differences in values and principles throughout America. That America might be too big. This is something you’ve talked about since the Controversial Truth days.

Robb: Right. Right.

Dave: And that America may need to be in fact broken up into seven different countries, I think as whatever we call.

Robb: Yeah.

Dave: And so, well, it’s an interesting thought exercise. I don’t think you and I will ever see that happen in our lifetime unless it’s by some massive, and when he talks about like a second civil war, but I don’t see that happening. But I do see things happening. Like our boy, Elon Musk. Right? And I do see kind of raging against the machine a little bit where you’re saying, “Okay, well I’m going to go to work. I don’t care what you have to say. Stop me.” We’re going to keep going and I will make these decisions and I will suffer the consequences of those decisions, which is also I believe a primary American trait.

Dave: And so, you might have some secondary traits, but I think if you looked at the primary trait, this idea of freedom and self-determination is the core of this idea of America. Now we can have an argument on whether or not, that America should exist or does exist. But I think it has existed and I think that has led to a lot of breakthroughs and some harm. But there is no free lunch in there. Unfortunately, nature, it’s cruel at times. The old story, someone wakes up looking for food and the other person is food.

Dave: And so, that sucks. And I wish we could live in a world where everything was equal, right? But I know that world doesn’t exist. So even me wishing it makes me feel like I want to be able to dunk a basketball and that ain’t going to happen unless I jump off something.

Robb: Exactly. Yeah. Looking at our show notes here, you covered what are we thinking, not thinking. Let’s shift a little bit into what you’re up to these dates. You’ve had some very interesting stuff on and just really quickly for folks to have a little bit of background, I’ve been chipping away at this medical risk assessment thing for the better part of eight years and have been, and I’ve told this story within the healthy rebellion that I’ve been close to doing some things like taking some venture capital and putting some wheels on this wagon.

Robb: And one of the real major times Dave came out to Reno and looked at me and my team and ask some very hard questions and I realized we weren’t ready yet. And so, Dave’s been really pivotal in that. But one of those trips you had an idea.

Dave: That’s right. It’s interesting. I was thinking back to when the last time you and I recorded, and it was on inauguration day. Whatever day that was in 2017. And about a month before that, I had a crazy idea after overhearing a conversation on an airplane, a Baton around on a new sort of insurance financial product that has the potential to, in a big idea sort of way, in a Zero to One sort of way.

Dave: And so, I read that book Zero to One by Peter Thiel and I sort of committed to trying to find a zero to one idea. And Robb knows that for years. And a lot of my friends know for years, I went back and forth trying to figure out what that might be. And I shared with Robb on that fateful trip a little over three years ago that I had this crazy idea. And so, part of what I’ve been doing in the past three years, I’ve been in a cave working on it.

Robb: Hence the hair.

Dave: Hence the hair. Right. And it has been the most fascinating journey of my life. I have been lucky to have been part of some neat stuff prior in my business world. And I’m going to talk very opaque about it right now because, but I promised Robb that this will be one of my first stops and we can officially talk about it.

Robb: Cool.

Dave: And Robb has been a big supporter to me and as equally been an excellent sounding board is as we’ve navigated these waters, but in the spirit of being self-reliant, in the spirit of being able to be in control of your finances in retirement. So a lot of people count on income streams that have been promised to them that might not come true. And so, we all have opinions on pensions, right? You hear about all the pension issues in California or social security or executives have deferred executive comp.

Dave: And so, there have never been ways for people to feel at peace about whether or not those systems will maintain their structure or their promises. And so, over the past three years from, “Dave, you’re crazy,” from some really smart people to, you might have something, to be able to assemble. I think I can say just by the grace of God or Tom cruise-

Robb: Or both.

Dave: Or both. The smartest minds in finance and insurance and the world to develop a new industry related to retirement planning in America. And then maybe throughout the world we’ll be launching our company mid-year and we’ll be able to fully talk about it. But it has the potential to not only do good work and provide people peace of mind or right now they don’t. But also to change the conversation on reliance in retirement years. Which I think we’re about ready to enter a world of a lot of retirement insecurity. And I think what we’re building at my company will be a pivotal player in making people feel less insecure.

Robb: Awesome. That was good. That was both informational and oblique. That was very well done. You studied up on that?

Dave: Yeah, no. I’m excited to, I’m an evangelist for it. I’m a believer in it. I’m all in on it. It’s what I was meant to do, so in our society.

Robb: Well, unlike Bitcoin, when you floated this one by me, this was an obvious win. It was a solution potentially hidden in plain sight in some ways.

Dave: That’s right.

Robb: And it’s pretty incredible. Yeah.

Dave: Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. You and your network, which we all know is profound, has also been integral in this. So, I’m excited to pull back the curtains here soon.

Robb: Awesome. Awesome.

Dave: Because sometimes I have to pinch myself or shock myself as well. But it’s been great.

Robb: It’ll make either a good book, a good movie or both at some point.

Dave: Right. Yeah, either I will have much longer hair because I can’t afford a haircut or by hair decisions will be all of my own decision and choice.

Robb: It’s going to be good either way that goes.

Dave: Exactly. Back to you, as long as we have our health and we can do the things we love. We’re way ahead on that. And I think that’s an important thing at this time. If you look at the history of when some great companies were built, they’ve been built during chaotic times.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And when people get worried as they should be, and we can talk a little bit about this because I’m sure, about how does the economy look 12 months from now. I think it would be something interesting for us to talk if time permits. But if you can use this opportunity to find a way to gain a greater sense of control of your career, of your path, of your passions, and make a decision to change and finally do what you want to do. I think great things can happen right now.

Robb: It’s awesome.

Dave: Not a lot of competition. People are scared.

Robb: Right. Right. Dave, I definitely want to touch on what your experience was within the rebel reset. But you know, where will we be three months, six months, 12 months down the road. There’s definitely been a lot of speculation around that. And if there’s anything that kind of puckers my giblets that’s probably it. And you and I, like you’ve said virtually on it, if not hourly, certainly a daily basis. We’re pinging each other things back and forth.

Robb: And I really not trying to not pick a lame line and just be like, “I’m going to be optimistic,” or like, “Oh shit, we’re screwed.” And I’m really trying to read between the lines and figure out what’s real on that stuff. But some people have made the case that this thing may end up looking more like 911, which was a real severe initial shock.

Robb: But because the economy was so generally in theory healthy, like you and I talked a lot about the potential smoke and mirrors around that. But within Krugman type economics, it was pretty healthy. Things were bumping along pretty well. So, when theory things should bounce back pretty quickly. But you and I have expressed some concerns around is that going to be real? Is there actually going to be more collateral damage that makes it harder to prime this pump and get things going? What are your perspectives on that? What do we need to be looking at in that story?

Dave: It’s a great question. And I think about it all the time. And I think I texted you the other day, I said, “Some days I want to go out, and be very optimistic about the recovery I see. Optimistic signs on some certain business stuff I’m involved in. And then later the same day, I feel like I need to cash it all in and to golden seeds and bury it somewhere. So, I understand completely where people are all over the map. What I try to do is distill things down to what I believe are true and then try to blow those ideas up.

Dave: And so, what I try, and I don’t know the answer to that is a big variable on my opinion on the recovery is, how many people, for whatever they have made a mental decision that they will not get back to pre-coronavirus life until there’s a proven vaccine. Right? So, I need to understand that number. I don’t know if we know it, no one knows that number, right? But let’s say that number is 20% of people, which in my experience it’s probably again-

Robb: Public conservative.

Dave: Public conservative.

Robb: Yeah.

Dave: So, if I am all of a sudden taking 20% of consumer behavior out of the equation, and we have, I think 30 new numbers came out today, 30 million unemployed now, I think. For the life of me, I am trying to figure out how this thing gets back on the tracks. I listened to Warren Buffet’s entire four and a half hour talk because I was looking for some guidance of assurance. And one of the main things I heard from him is, here’s the history of America. You know, you never bet against America, which I believe in, I totally believe it, but here are all the tools that were able to be used for other catastrophes related to the American experience.

Dave: And we had a tool that when this car came off the track, we had a tool to lift it back on the track. Might not have been used fast enough, probably should have been used differently. But eventually that car got on the track and we had that tool in the toolbox. And now, he’s saying, right now we’re looking at a train that was picked up off the rails and laid on its side. And there is no tool available yet, that can pick that train back up and put it back on the track. Is it one car at a time? Is there a tool that can do for eventually? Are we innovating something new that could somehow levitate this thing?

Robb: Do we tilt the planet?

Dave: Yeah, do we tilt the planet? Right. And so, I’m worried about the recovery. I am. And I’m worried, I’m not so worried about the short-term consequences of mass financial stimulus because we have the printing press, but I’m worried about the long-term ramifications of that to our security and ability to maintain reserve currency. Because of the reserve currency goes, FYI folks, if you ever see a blast through saying there’s a new reserve currency everything in your life is about ready to change. Just to let you know that.

Robb: I’m rereading the book, The Mandibles, which talks about the loss of reserve currency and it’s both fascinating and horrifying.

Dave: Right. And so, we sit very much in the driver’s seat and can make these rules that other countries can’t, and we will benefit from that. So long as that is a card we can play. But I am not as optimistic as what would say the stock market is about the recovery. I don’t see how it’s going to happen so quickly. And so therefore, I worry about the long-term ramifications of unemployment. And I worry about my restaurant, right? And I worry that people aren’t going to, then all of a sudden, this train isn’t going to get on a track fast enough for the rents to be paid and caught up. The mortgages to be paid and caught up.

Dave: These forbearance are just being pushed off, right? They’re not exoneration of this debt and payments that people need to make. So these things stack. And so, if things are pushed off and stack and we have a savings problem in the most booming economy of all time before that, how in the world are you going to make up for that deficit when we start easing back into things and don’t have a booming economy? So the math, the commonsense side and luck. I look at the stock market and I think it’s up today, and I’m like, I shouldn’t be in the stock market. I don’t understand it. Don’t understand it. Don’t know what’s going on. I can’t wait for Vegas to open. I feel like I have a better chance there, you know?

Robb: Yeah. And we’ve, oh, keep going. Keep going.

Dave: No, no. But then, if you have a long investment horizon get in.

Robb: Right.

Dave: I don’t believe America’s going away. I like Warren Buffett. It’s the only time I’ve ever said that in my life. I agree that America will prevail eventually.

Robb: Right. Also, that’ll be your first time saying it, but not the last. How about that?

Dave: I don’t know. But it’s a time to be smart. It’s a time I think to be conservative in your spending and your financial moves because I’m not sure what the next 12 months are going to bring.

Robb: Right.

Dave: And it’s amazing if anything, I’ve had the smallest credit card bills I’ve had in decades over the past. I guess there’s all sort of stuff I was buying that I really didn’t need because I’m not missing it, you know? I think now is a smart time for us all to reassess what’s important. And it wouldn’t be a good podcast from us if I didn’t do the constant quote that I quoted in the Controversial Truth from one of the greatest movies of all time, Fight Club. Which is, “If you’re not careful, the things you own end up owning you.”

Robb: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dave: And I think if this time can be used, I’m sure I butchered that quote somehow, I’m sort of not exactly. But if this time can be used to become really self-sufficient economically, career-wise, and health wise, that brings peace. And in chaos, peace is a hell of a currency.

Robb: Right, right. Very well said. We should button up there, but I want to hear what your experience was with the last rebel reset. How did that go for you?

Dave: It’s been great. I am carvaholic, I love carves. I have great memories growing up, experiencing all sorts of wonderfully bad food, associated to great events. So you have that sort of emotional nostalgic tie to it. But it’s interesting being in Northern Michigan was a great time for me to start it because I was isolated. I didn’t have temptations. And now back into Atlanta, while I haven’t been a purist on it, I feel better. I’ve lost weight.

Robb: You look good. You look good.

Dave: Thank you. I feel good. I feel good. Thanks Rob.

Robb: Awesome.

Dave: Thank you. And people should’ve seen me with a beard. That was crazy. I had this like ridiculous beard.

Robb: There was a little hay Seuss Cristo going on there for a while. Yeah.

Dave: It’s true, yeah, yeah. I was thinking about him a lot. And it’s been great, and it’s been the needed next step in my resiliency plan.

Robb: Awesome. Awesome.

Dave: I did the work on the other areas, but this was the missing link.

Robb: Awesome.

Dave: And it’s provided the structure and community that I needed, and you guys do excellent work and it’s awesome. I haven’t been on all of the weekly updates, but I have been on some. And it’s so great to see what you’ve built, and as always, I’m a proud and profoundly in awe of what you and Nicki have done, the lives that you have affected and changed, and I’m just one of those, so thank you.

Robb: That’s awesome. Well, you’re a dear friend and we were stoked to get in there and this is completely honest. Having someone like you to just run some ideas up the flag pole, like in this scenario where we were socially isolated, but yet community is so profoundly important having someone that I trust to be honest with me, who’s got a level head, but like if you see the comic coming towards us, you’re like duck but then the flip side of that, I don’t know that I see monsters around every corner. Having someone like that, that I can run things by and to get a little bit of a reality check has been really powerful for me.

Dave: Well, it’s been my honor. Thank you.

Robb: Awesome.

Dave: Thank you. Like we said in 2012, we’re just getting started.

Robb: Yeah.

Dave: We’ve plenty of road ahead of us.

Robb: Yes, we do.

Dave: To do some fun and great things and I think ultimately, good will come out of this chaos. But I think people have to be purposeful. And you provide a lot of great structure and chaos that helps people find that peace.

Robb: That’s cool. I too function well in chaos. So that’s kind of where my dysfunctional upbringing shines. So, I do quite well with that. Yeah.

Dave: Well, thank you my friend. As always love our time together. And when I can be more transparent about the new gig, which should be here in the next three or four months. I think that will be a fun conversation to talk about the new world as we see it then.

Robb: Cool. Well, maybe at that point we bring you out to Texas and we eat some good food and do this one live.

Dave: Hey, sold.

Robb: Okay. Cool. Cool.

Dave: I’d love that.

Robb: Well, Dave, do you want to let folks know where they can track you down. Mainly, I can fix America currently or?

Dave: Yeah, you can still do, although the website is under construction, down. But yeah, if any questions, anyone want to talk to me, Again, where no politician owned that website? Not sure.

Robb: Because it didn’t even occur to them.

Dave: And for those that have no idea that I would have the ego large enough to say that I can fix America, it was actually a book that I wrote that’s still available of ways that individuals can feel empowered to fix America. So please, yours truly doesn’t think he by himself can fix America.

Robb: It is we.

Dave: Although I’m working on some things that hopefully will enable some people to be part of it.

Robb: Yeah. You took quite a number of pages out of that book in the activities that you’re up to. So yeah.

Dave: Well, some time will tell, but very optimistic.

Robb: Very cool. Well, Dave, thank you again. Take care and can’t wait to see you in real life.

Dave: All right. Me neither, buddy. We’ll talk soon. Stay well everyone stay well.

Robb: Take care of Dave. Bye.

Dave: Bye-bye.

Nicki: Okay. That was a goodie.

Robb: That was a goodie. It’s always good connecting with Dave. Sometimes I don’t know if we’re just kind of pissing into the wind like when Dave and I were doing the Healthy Rebellion, we had the episode eight, that we’d like to say.

Nicki: You mean the Controversial Truth?

Robb: Sorry. Sorry, the Controversial Truth. It was kind of, does anything that we’re doing matter? Is this just pissing in the wind, and how, when did that? And the feedback from folks was like, “No, man, it really matters.” And the show was pretty popular. The downloads were good, and so, it’s interesting because there are folks that listen, there are folks that care, there are folks that are thinking and asking the questions that need to be asked and thought about. But it’s crazy. The volume and the intensity that we get from social media and from the regular media outlets. It’s easy to wonder if any good work is worth it.

Robb: But it is, and it does matter. And again, just as a peripheral example, there was a day when I first kind of discovered the paleo diet concept. There was a time when there were a few hundred people on the planet that knew what it was. And there was a day when my friend Dave Warner and I were doing CrossFit in his garage gym and there were fewer than a couple of hundred people on the planet that knew what the fuck CrossFit was. And now you go into any sporting goods store and there are CrossFit banners and advertisements, and stuff like that. And it has changed fitness in a very profound way so we can affect massive change.

Robb: And the interesting thing though is it does start with a relatively few people, but it’s with a good idea, asking the right questions, being willing to adapt and grow and change. And so, this conversation with Dave was good for me. It was good catharsis for me. And I hope that this was kind of the experience that the listeners had on this.

Nicki: Awesome. Thank you all for joining us. Be sure to grab some bone broth from our show sponsor, Kettle & Fire. Go to and use code Salty Talk for 15% off your order. And we’ll see you all next time and I hope you all have a good day.

Robb: Take care.

Nicki: Bye. As always, Salty Talk episodes are brought to you by drink element. The only electrolyte drink mix that’s salty enough to make a difference in how you look, feel, and perform. Get salty at that’s drink

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